Level Up Leadership: Abraham Gin & Jim Lee

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Level Up is a podcast for anyone interested in improving their leadership skills. The series is designed to help you gain insight into the skills needed to grow your career.

You can subscribe to Level Up Leadership on Apple PodcastsGoogle PlaySoundCloud and Spotify.

Most recently, we spoke to Abraham Gin and Jim Lee, speakers and consultants at GiANT Worldwide, a global media and content development company specializing in leader transformation.

Here are some takeaways from our conversation with Abe and Jim:

Leadership is not just positional anymore.
Your position on the ladder might have been what was most important a few decades before, but nowadays, relational and influential leadership is what matters most—instead of focusing on leveraging power over others, choose to focus on the way you conduct yourself and relate to others in the workplace. Having a command on soft skills is what differentiates a leader.

Take the time to learn your voice.
Abe and Jim are experts in the five voices: Nurturer, Creative, Connector, Guardian and Pioneer. They urge others to take the time to learn what their foundational voice is and where they lie with the other voices so they can better understand communication. Learning the ins and outs of your own voice will better equip you to interact with others’ voices, no matter how opposite from yours.

Being truly self-aware takes courage.
In order to really get to know your voice and how you interact with others, you need to be able to distinguish between who you want to be perceived as and who you really are. And the difference doesn’t always have to be a bad thing. If you know your tendencies and preferences, then you can be more intentional about the way you conduct yourself around others. Like Abe said, you have to know yourself to lead yourself.

Have a personal board of directors.
Having a support system you can talk to about your situation and trust to give you reliable feedback is very important. Find five people you can be vulnerable with and establish an open line of communication with them. Using them as a sounding board will be helpful with pinpointing what your strengths are and what you can improve in.

We were so happy to have the opportunity to chat with Abe and Jim for Level Up.

Check out interviews with other leaders.

Full Transcript

Patty: 00:00:01 Today, we’re speaking with Abraham Gin and Jim Lee, speakers and consultants at GiANT Worldwide, a global media and content development company specializing in leader transformation.
Patty: 00:00:28 So, if you guys can just introduce yourself to our listeners who haven’t had the opportunity to be part of your workshops and just tell us a little bit about what you do and how you got here?
Abraham: 00:00:40 My name is Abraham Gin, both, Jim and I represent GiANT Worldwide and it’s a global leadership firm, and we just have a vision to really help leaders become liberators. And we say liberators of those who know how to appropriately bring the right support challenge and really help people create cultures of empowerment opportunity. In that, as leaders become liberated in their context, we want them to be leaders worth following.
Abraham: 00:01:07 And so, part of my personal journey of how I engaged or I got into this field was really, I just noticed, at the end of the day, whatever organizations that I worked for, two things was really important. It was really relationships, and it was the leadership. And out of that relationship and leadership, you actually create a culture and I think that the most high-performing teams really think about culture. So, when there was an opportunity to be part of just GiANT and really being able to socialiZe and to be able to help with leaders, organizationally, that’s something that I really have a passion for, and it’s always been something that’s very important to my journey.
Mike: 00:01:51 I think relationships is key. That’s something you really touched on today’s workshop. I was wondering, early in your career as you began to observe different leaders, and you’re working with the organization on how to be effective, what were some of the initial challenges you saw people have when it came to building relationships?
Abraham: 00:02:09 I think just leadership, in general, it’s changed a lot, and what was important, a couple decades before, right? It was very much positional leadership, was very important, your credentials, your resume, all the different letters behind your name. But, nowadays, leadership is not just positional leadership, it’s really about relational influential leadership. And the way you go about conducting yourself in relational leadership or influential leadership is very different from leveraging or lording over others in regards to pushing people to certain alignment or execution. It requires building trust and gaining consensus and creating more agile collaborative scenarios and creating psychological safety. It requires a lot more the soft skills and the warmth aspects of relationships. You can’t just leverage your skillset of your IQ and your intelligence. In the dawn of Google, you would have thought that leadership issues would be solved because you now have all this intelligence in the world. But at the end of the day, what we find is that the leaders that really are pushing the greatest influence are the ones who really know how to move at an influential leadership versus just positional leadership.
Patty: 00:03:29 You and Jim, both use something you call the five voices to help people understand other people better and communicate better. Can you guys explain the five voices a little more?
Jim: 00:03:38 Yeah, the five voices is a framework that was created by GiANT to make things more intuitive and simple and sticky. We say that if it’s not easy to use than people don’t use it at all. And I grew up in 20 years of my leadership using Myers-Briggs type indicators, and there’s a lot of controversy behind that. But not to go into too much depth on that reason, but I think the bigger controversy is not understanding how to use it. And as well as being confused on what those letters mean. And it’s not sticky. So what we found is, if we could describe people’s tendencies and create personality types that we call voices, then I think people can be heard. And so the reality is, your personality is a voice. It’s a way you tend to want to communicate, whether it’s body language, whether it’s your voice that you speak into, and if we can use words that are more intuitive on what it describes like, then it’s a lot more easier for people to not only relate to but to take ownership of, as well as to be able to relate better with other people.
Jim: 00:04:42 So, we have five voices and we call them Nurturer, Guardian, Creative, Connector, and Pioneer. And they all just have a certain invocation, right, when you hear those words, and that’s what makes it a lot more stickier for people to not only take ownership and relate to it, then having four letters that, a lot of the times, people don’t understand what they mean or what order those letters those letters take place into.
Patty: 00:05:07 Right, and the workshops that we are involved in with you guys, not a lot of people are going to be able to experience that. And it’s very unique and very cool. Mike, I want to know what your first impression of Abe and Jim were and their presentation?
Mike: 00:05:23 Oh, well, right off the bat, what I thought was really cool, was that you started off with talking about your families. And I immediately connected to that, because it kind of humanized you. And I saw your kids and how cute they are. And as a dad, I was like, “Oh, these guys are cool.” I’m attracted to the Nurturers. So, seeing your families and you talking about your family’s, I connected immediately to that. And then when you started to introduce these five different voices, initially, I was thinking Myers-Briggs Enneagram stuff, like personality types. And I thought, “Oh, this is a different way of looking at things.” Because we actually went through, in our PR team, about six years ago, the full Myers-Briggs analysis where everybody on the team was analyzed.
Patty: 00:06:18 I didn’t know that.
Mike: 00:06:19 Yeah, and we actually had a Myers-Briggs consultant go through our results with us. But what was really funny, because we’re all in PR, she was like, “I’ve never seen everyone on the extroverted scale”. Like, everybody, was on the extroverted scale. Even though it was really interesting to learn more about ourselves through that testing. It’s so true what you said, Jim, I wasn’t quite sure what to do with it.
Jim: 00:06:44 Yeah.
Mike: 00:06:45 Like, I thought it was interesting. Like, oh, I understand myself better and, oh, isn’t that interesting, but there was nothing really actionable on how to do it. So when I heard your presentation, about the different personality types… I’m sorry, these different voices, and, then, how these voices work, and why it’s really important to think about these voices because that’s how we communicate with others, it was, like, a light bulb in my head that went off.
Patty: 00:07:11 Yeah. My first experience with you guys was during the demo. And that was when Abe picked me out. He asked me like, what, five questions? And then he totally just told me what I was. It felt like he was reading my whole life.
Mike: 00:07:24 Oh, wow.
Patty: 00:07:24 Yeah. And it was just crazy. So it’s interesting hearing that there are these tendencies that you have, and because of them, people can kind of peg what you’re going to act like and how you’re going to speak in the workplace and whatnot. I’m interested to know if you guys were just always Connector and Pioneer?
Abraham: 00:07:44 Yeah. It’s really interesting. In my personal journey of this framework, it was really difficult for me to identify what my primary voices were. In fact, it took me like six months. The reason why is because a lot of times when we think about our leadership behavior, our leadership voice or finding our authentic voice, we don’t know how to distinguish between the Nature and the Nurturer, and the choices that actually come all together to display who you are. But if you can dissect between the Nature and Nurture… Nurture being everything external, to pressurizing you to be a certain way, whether it’s your education, your vocation, your job, to your culture, to everything that has been external to you to actually become a certain way. And then nature being intrinsic to, kind of, what your cards that you’ve been dealt with that you’ve been given from birth, right.
Abraham: 00:08:42 And then choices can either agree with the nature or the nurture or something totally different, right? Well, for me, I was so enmeshed with my nurture and the different choices that I actually didn’t know what my true voice was. So, it really took me a while to unravel the layers for myself and to really start to identify with my true voice. And so there was a little bit of… Sometimes we want to perceive ourselves to be certain way, because maybe we’ve been modeled that because your mom or your dad said, that’s the way we need to lead or to become successful.
Patty: 00:09:17 Yeah.
Abraham: 00:09:17 Or maybe your job forces you to be a specific way. And to be able to navigate between that and really clearly see your landscape, we always say like, there’s power in clarity, right? There’s power in clarity. And when you actually have a clear picture between what your nature and nurture choices are, you’re going to basically be able to start to choose a pathway that really allows you to tap into your flow state versus moving in a place that’s unnatural to you that often will zap your energy, and at the end of the day, you wonder why you hate your job.
Patty: 00:09:47 Yeah.
Abraham: 00:09:47 So, I went through that journey of really self-awareness to the point of almost self-loathing of my own… Not really accepting who I am. And then all of a sudden start to really embrace and really love who I am. And then really start to then make intentional choices to live very differently. It takes a while and most people don’t take enough time to really go through that self-awareness journey.
Mike: 00:10:13 Before we move on, I know people who listen to podcasts, who’ve never attended a class, we quickly went through those voices. I thought it’d be, maybe, helpful if we can just briefly break down each of the voices so that those listening can maybe identify it while they’re driving a car, or listening.
Jim: 00:10:29 Sure. So we’d like to say out of the five voices, that are quieter voices and louder voices. We like to start with the quieter ones. And the quieter ones don’t necessarily mean that they speak softly, in terms of the audible level, but we like to say is how much do they tend to impose their values and their preferences on to other people?
Jim: 00:10:48 So Nurturers, they’re the selfless ones, because they tend to create the most psychological safety and emotional comfort for other people. So, we like to say, if your tendency is that you see people that are hurt, or people need something and you want to help them, but you’re okay the way they are and where they are, and maybe they’re just sharing with you their life story or whatever things that they need from you and you love to give it to them and be a part of that life in that way, emotionally, then your tendency is to probably have a Nurturer voice. And that might be your primary foundational voice we say.
Jim: 00:11:23 The second one we call is Creative. And Creatives are people that see the world of how it should be, and how it could be. So, there’s this integrity nature that they have, like, hey, we can make this better. So internally, they’re constantly thinking, they’re constantly looking at the world, analyzing it, and what can they do to make it better? But internally for themselves, they also see like, what could they do to be a better person. They have a hard time not only communicating those thoughts in their head because there’s so much in it, but they also have a hard time accepting who they are because they always [inaudible 00:11:57] what they could do to be better. We call them Creatives. They’re out of the box thinkers. Like, standard way of doing things is not good enough. It could always be done better.
Jim: 00:12:05 The third one is, it’s almost contrary to the Creative voice, but it’s similar to the nurture voice in terms of, they want to create stability. And so we call them Guardians. How do we create stability in the processes of how we do things? And how do we honor the past decisions that everybody else decided, and not think of out of the box ways to do things because if we do, it might jeopardize the results that we know can already happen. So that diligence of doing things in a processed way that is repeatable and systematized is one of the things that they do. So opposite of the Creative but almost like a Nurturer. Like, hey, if it ain’t broke, let’s not fix it because I know what the outcome is, and it’s something that we all agree to. That would be Guardians, right?
Jim: 00:12:50 The fourth one is what we call a Connector. A Connector tends to be extroverted because they like making relationships with people. They’re all about other people and what can they do to help other people. So you find this tendency that they want to get into other people’s business, and they tend to air their laundry out for everybody to see, is one way to say it. But [inaudible 00:13:09] on social media, they have a Twitter account, they have a Facebook account, they have a Snapchat account, they have all these accounts. But, in general, right, Connectors are people that want to work with other people and help other people to achieve their goals, and their meaning of life is to make other people happy in a way and improve them.
Jim: 00:13:29 And then lastly, we call them Pioneers. They tend to have the loudest voice because they’re, what we call, the ones that possess military intelligence in a way. They’re all about competency. They’re about getting things done. They’re the people that really say, if there’s a one in a billion chance to do it, sign them up, because there’s a chance to do it, no one else has done it before and that’s very important to them. They’re very good at scaling what the goal is supposed to be from the outcome to the current time, place, and creating a systematic way that other people can follow. So, for them, if today after a long day at work but it was very vital for them to achieve a certain goal and do some processes, even though they might be physically tired, they can push themselves to get it done because it’s so important to do that. But on the downside is, they could really tax the people that are following them because they’re unable to keep up because they’re not as compelled as the Pioneers are to follow along.
Jim: 00:14:19 So, in a framework, we say we all have the ability to do all five, we just tend to do the ones that we prefer more as one foundational voice, and then how those five voices are ordered, can tell you about what are some other key elements about your weakness, your blind spot, and how do you prefer to use the other voices to help you through your foundational voice?
Mike: 00:14:40 I had a question. So, Abraham, you mentioned how when you were going through your own process and trying to figure out what’s my dominant voice… Because as you went through them again, I’m like, now I’m questioning myself again, right? Now, I’m, like, oh, I definitely feel like I’m a Nurturer. I definitely am a Connector. I also like to be creative. Those three descriptions, I feel like it’s a magnet. Abraham, you talked about what do you do when you feel like a strong pull towards several of these different voices?
Abraham: 00:15:13 Well, definitely, I think sometimes people who do resonate with a Connector Nurturer, first of all, just take you as an example, the difference between a Nurturer and a Connector is that Nurturers can just embrace people… They don’t even want to change… They’re okay with just empathetically walking with them hand-holding through the junk and through the mess. Whereas, Connectors tend to want change. And if they’re not willing to change and continue to go into the positive outlook of growth, then it’s hard for them to maintain those relationships. Connectors tend to have, also, even more of a breadth of relationship, whereas Nurturers tend to be faithful and often have friends that are actually from even elementary and they keep following up with them.
Abraham: 00:15:55 So that’s a different nuance of it. So if that’s the question, I would say, hey, when you love on people or care for them, do you tend to have a magical experience and it’s great, and also is this wonderful catalytic counseling session, and then you make a breakthrough? Or do you tend to be this faithful endearing forever type of person that continues to walk with them through the thick and thin? Which one do you-
Mike: 00:16:18 Man, those descriptions are really good too. So, I’ll tell you that I would hope that I’m the type that is going to stick with my friends through the thick and the thin, and I think that’s the way I am. At my heart, my core, I do care for people. And so I want to be there for them. So I definitely would say that I probably lean more towards and nurturing side.
Patty: 00:16:42 But then it’s also, like, what Abe was saying, where you have to be self-aware enough to distinguish between what I want to be perceived as, and what I actually am. That’s true. Like, I also want to be perceived as someone who’s going to stick through the thick and thin, but am I? No. I probably wouldn’t.
Jim: 00:16:56 That doesn’t make you bad. I think one thing that’s so important for us to be aware, we have all five voices. But the reality is if you don’t see what your primary voice is, because it’s all subjective to your mind, and we don’t have this universal language that we can all talk through and share objectively of what we see, then we tend to be blind and other people see us as being self-aware. So, the question would be, well, you see yourself as a Nurturer, but nobody else sees you as a Nurturer because they don’t see the times when you’re not as patient as a Nurturer would be. And we’re not using the gold standard of how we measure ourselves to a true Nurture. But measuring how we want to say that we’re patting ourselves on the back and we’re saying good enough, then that’s when it’s almost like you’re walking around, and people are looking at you saying, man… You can’t see how you’re not as nurturing and you’re bragging about something that you’re really not, then that repels people away from you.
Jim: 00:17:51 So our goal with five voices and teaching this is, how can you become more an effective leader because you have clarity and objectivity of what type of leadership that you portray? What are your strengths and leaning into that? Right? And I think a lot of Connectors have a hard time not realizing they’re not a Nurturer.
Jim: 00:18:10 But for me, I’m what we call a fourth voice Nurturer. And your fourth voice tends to be a blind spot. We know your fifth voice is your weakest one. And we tend to work on because we know that’s our weak point. So it’s almost like, I know I have to work on that because I’m bad at it. But the fourth one is, we’re just not as good as we think we are so we call that our blind spot. And just like in your car, you have that blind spot and you change lanes and sometimes you always hit that car. What happens is, for me, as a fourth voice Nurturer, I want to help other people, and I totally want to do things for them. But like Abraham said, I’m someone that wants to see growth in them. And if I don’t see growth, then I’m like, Oh, my gosh, this is so tiring.
Patty: 00:18:51 Yeah.
Jim: 00:18:51 And then that’s where I’m, like, oh my gosh, I’m not a Nurturer, right, because if I wasn’t nurture, I’d be so happy with who they are today. But that’s why I do coaching, right? I’m just naturally someone that can help people to change. And if that change hasn’t happened, my tendency is to undermine my own influence that I start over-promising and under-delivering, because I’m like, Oh my gosh, we’ll do it, we could do it like, you could totally make it, right.
Jim: 00:19:14 So I need to be self-aware that, hey, I am not so nurturing. So I’m going to be more upfront with the people that I want to work with and make sure that they understand that, hey, our engagement is, I want to help you to move forward. But if that’s not something that you want to do, like more than happy to have one or two conversations and tell you where I stand, but if it’s going to take more than that, let me get you in contact with a Nurturer and give you somebody that is really good at what their strengths are, not an imposter like myself.
Mike: 00:19:40 As you were chatting, I was thinking about how we build our teams and as we choose people to work with… So my wife, as you described is definitely a Guardian. She handles all the bills. She’s managing everything. She’s the one is questioning every financial decision. She wants frameworks. My sister-in-law’s the same way. They’re just really, really good. And I’m the opposite. I’m very much, like, let’s just go and get this thing. We don’t need to do all the research. It’ll be fine. Let’s go to Costco, it’ll be fine, we take it back.
Mike: 00:20:13 So we’re very much opposites. So it works really well for our marriage. I’m curious about, as we build our teams, should we be finding our polar opposites to be with us as we’re working on projects? I’m just, kind of, curious your view on that?
Abraham: 00:20:29 Well, just little feedback. Often we marry people, opposite of ourselves in earlier years in our 20s. But as we progress and get married, maybe in the 30s or 40s, you tend to marry more like your voice.
Mike: 00:20:41 Oh, interesting. And so, there’s some intuitive sense where everyone wants to marry the complimentary gifts of who we are. We always say that if you actually have a team that’s five voiced or at least validate or value five voices, whether you either recruit for them or actually bring them as an advisory role to give you insight, it’s important to have all five voices because it really touches the full spectrum of the population.
Patty: 00:21:09 Yes, I like that philosophy because even when you guys are going over the voices and just looking at other traits, I was still under the belief that Pioneers are the best leaders because they’re the ones that are so most obvious are leaders. So I think it’s really interesting that it’s like, no, you should have all five voices, even if it’s harder to access one, you should be able to tap into each to become a good leader. So I really like that philosophy.
Patty: 00:21:37 I’d like to know if there was a moment in your careers where you thought something has to be different, like, this has to change and it kind of catapulted you into the direction of the five voices?
Jim: 00:21:51 For me, there was a moment when I got married at the age of 40, a little bit of a late bloomer, and we teach that intentionality versus accident till leadership is so vital. Right? And we talked about today, there’s a tool called the know yourself to lead yourself tool, that our reality, when you back-calculate it, is a consequence of our actions. So we can create the reality we want, we just have to be intentional, the things that we do. And for me, getting married at 40, I knew what my wife was going to be like, and I knew my own tendencies, right.
Jim: 00:22:27 So if I know my tendencies and the things that I prefer, I could either be accidental in my actions and then become a victim of a situation and the circumstances and be a victim of my reality, or I could be intentional in what I do. And that’s where five voices really came into life. I was using MBTI in my leadership, as I mentioned earlier, but when I found GiANT and the five voices framework, they’re pretty much the same backbone, but it was more intuitive and more easier for me to use and then replicate that, not only in just the people that are closer to me but also to spread that into the ecosystem with the culture with the other people that I work with.
Jim: 00:23:04 So the people in my community that I work with, they know five voices, and they’re able to lead their, their own selves to a reality that we all agree that we want to achieve, right? And then understand that balance of working with your opposite voices and having all five represented and if we don’t have that one, what would they say, what would they want in order for that to happen?
Jim: 00:23:24 So that was really vital for me, is that when I was looking at becoming more intentional in my career, it’s like, hey, I’m going to… I had my daughter at the age of 43, right? Like my first child, I need to be so much more intentional with that because I don’t have that much bandwidth as a 43-year old, and now I’m 46, to be able to hang with a daughter for me to be accidental in my life, I’m constantly fixing my reality, trying to fix like my daughter’s reality and then fix the relationship of my wife, because I’m being accidental, but just to lean into more intentionality so that I’m a lot more effective and efficient with the relationships that I have.
Abraham: 00:24:02 I think for me, it’s so powerful when you are able to start to understand the value of each voice, right. And I think, for me as a Pioneer, one of the tendencies that they tend to have is that they like to execute really fast. And sometimes if it’s no one understands you, you just, kind of, Pioneer away, and you, kind of, hack away, and what ends up happening, you might accomplish great things, but I found myself when I look to my left and right, I was like, no one was celebrating with me. Because I did it, but I conquered that mountain by myself, and I didn’t do it with a team.
Abraham: 00:24:38 And so I kept doing this in different reiterations in my career in different aspects of different organizations, and I realized, oh my gosh, if I want to continue to do great things, but then do it by myself, because I want to do it fast and say, Hey, you can do it fast if you do it alone. But if you want to do something greater and bigger and actually enjoy the process, celebrate it, slow down a little bit and do it together.
Abraham: 00:25:02 That’s what has been really transformative for me as a Pioneers is, like, Hey… I give you a practical example, even walking. walk so fast compared to my wife, who is a Nurturer who literally soaks in the presence of the environment.
Patty: 00:25:18 Yeah.
Abraham: 00:25:19 She literally looks at every single thing. And I realized, oh my gosh, that’s what I do, literally, to other voices, right. Like, certain voices like to take things a little bit slower, right. Sometimes they even feel like they often are putting brakes to your projects, whereas other voices tend to like push on the acceleration, which is typically the Creatives, the Pioneers and the Connectors. But Nurturers and Guardians tend to do it a little bit slower because they adopt new concepts in different way because their gift set is bringing stability in relationships for the Nurturer, and stability and operations and consistency for the Guardians.
Abraham: 00:25:55 And so if we don’t value each person, then we’re not going to actually have fun at the end, celebrate, and in the day and age where you realize that if you really want to do your best and bring the best product or service, you got to do it, not by yourself. But you got to learn how to work in teams. And really those who actually have the EQ and the sense to actually work collaboratively can do greater things than actually by yourself. And so that’s something that’s really been a huge learning opportunity for me and has really changed the way that I’d like to conduct myself.
Mike: 00:26:30 That’s really good. That’s a really good example of how a Pioneer should be working across these different voices. How about the other end of the spectrum where you have the Nurturers on the team, and they want to make an impact too? But sometimes it’s harder, they have a quieter voice. And it’s harder for them to, maybe, get the attention of the Pioneer on the team, or whoever’s leading the team. And do you have any advice for them, to help them seem more credible and also build to help influence decisions?
Jim: 00:27:02 One thing you mentioned earlier was how do you create representation of all the different voices on a team and is that the wise way to do it. And I think, a lot of times, the limitation of the leaders ability to work across all five voices, eventually becomes the glass ceiling of the capabilities of that leader and the team. So I take that the other way around and say, as a Nurturer voice that tends to be more quiet, when it’s exhausting, emotionally, and it’s physically exhausting to engage with a Pioneer and have a difference of opinions, but then your tendency is to always come from the perspective of emotional safety. Where it’s the complete opposite for the Pioneer, that their tendency is to drive for competency and achievement, then you have to know what you’re up against. And you don’t want to like go to war, and not count the cost of what it’s going to take to battle and then eventually lose and then be perceived as someone that is incompetent, right?
Jim: 00:28:05 But what we also want to say is, Nurtures, knowing that the person that you’re working with is a Pioneer, and is someone that drives for competency… And we have all five voices… You should see a Nurturer when they become a Pioneer, it tends to be when they’re really tired, and they’re fighting for all the people they care for and then someone starts picking on their family. You should see, like, if someone were to pick on my daughter or my wife that’s a Nurturer, like, Oh, my God, mama bear comes out and becomes the Pioneer mom, right?
Abraham: 00:28:33 Yeah.
Jim: 00:28:34 And so you have that in you. But let’s not wait until the last moment when you’re so excited and you’re so tired. And then now you feel like the Pioneers are trying to pick on all the people on your team that you care about, that you kind of come out, right? We’re saying is, save that energy into a positive way and be more intentional and do your homework, right. Take the time to get to know the Pioneer, what their goals are, what are their preferences, do some research to say what is the best way to move forward. And not only share that but also don’t be afraid to represent your group because we say Nurtures are 43% of the general population. They have the most representation. So if you want diversity, equity and inclusion in the leadership scope, Nurtures have the most… Not only to provide because you represent so much, but you also have the most to lose if you don’t speak up.
Jim: 00:29:25 So I think it’s very important that they push themselves to engage in that level and really bring out that mama bear ahead of time and go toe to toe. It’s going to be tiring after the conversation, but with practice, you can really use that strength more and more.
Mike: 00:29:41 As you’ve consulted at different companies and met with different types of leaders, do you notice certain trends towards certain kinds of voices for leaders, aside from… I’m thinking, Pioneer, to me, is the obvious one. Like strategy, the drive, setting goals, let’s go, team. That one seems like a natural kind of leader role. I’m curious about other types of voices you see?
Abraham: 00:30:05 Yeah. Well, just more in general, for instance, Nurtures tend to have a natural bend towards HR, right? You have the Financial CPA or the operations tend to be a little more Guardian. The salesperson tend to be a little bit more of a Connector, typically. And then you have, maybe, the marketing could be also Connector or Creative, some aspects, right.
Abraham: 00:30:32 So there’s usually some natural tendencies to certain jobs that maybe you have chemistry with naturally. But we find that the future-oriented voices, typically the Pioneer Connectors, and Creatives tend to be in a little bit higher levels of positions because they like to look at the bigger picture. They don’t want to be in the day-to-day operations. And we often find the present-orientated voices, the Nurturers and Guardians, tend to be a little bit in more of the actual individual contribution or the people management aspects of it. Because they like to have things more concrete in the day-to-day operations. They don’t want to just go into theory of the big picture.
Abraham: 00:31:15 So, we do see a little bit of a correlation of what we find is… You’ll see a little bit more of the future voices and the Pioneer, Creators, up on the higher levels. Not that they are only competent, but that typically they like to, kind of, shoot for those things because that’s where it, kind of, brings out their genius more. Whereas, Nurtures, Guardians, tend to not want to go above because they like to just be more in the hands-on daily activities even more so because they don’t want to go into a place where it just becomes so ethereal.
Jim: 00:31:48 So one way to look at it, is risk aversion, right? So Guardians and Nurturers don’t tend to like risk. So, the higher up you go, the more risky it is, for not only their own livelihood, because there’s a lot more eyeballs on them, and they have a tendency to not want to draw that attention. And then at the same time, they’re so much more detail-oriented, it’s so hard for them to manage all aspects of the business. And as Abraham was saying, they don’t like the conceptual aspects of a job. And so they want to just be in the day-to-day aspects, right.
Jim: 00:32:20 But then you’ll find most Pioneers tend to be more of the higher executive level because they’re willing to fight those type of battles that they have. So they’re people that are very strategic and long-term. So larger corporations, upper management, tends to be more Pioneeristic we would like to say, and then you find the Creatives and the Connectors right below them when it comes to director level or senior management type of positions as well because they like to work with other people and they can take the conceptual architecture and start speaking that into the different teams that they’re leading so that we can drive towards a certain goal.
Abraham: 00:32:55 But I don’t want to pigeonhole and just say that Nurtures and Guardians cannot be at the highest level. They are great leaders and [inaudible 00:33:02] that, but, what we find, there is a trend because of the natural gift sets where they want to, kind of, position themselves in the career path, yeah.
Patty: 00:33:10 I know that we tap into our different voices depending on the situation and who we’re talking to, but do our foundational voices ever change, like in different times of our lives?
Abraham: 00:33:19 So our foundational voice will never change. It’ll always be true, your natural voice. But there’s different seasons in life because of different areas that you need grow in maturity, you may actually have to elevate different aspects of your life. So, if you’re a Connector, you tend to love to cast vision, you’re really good with chemistry and people and socializing ideas and branding and communication, but maybe something that you had to learn through your maturity of your growth is learning how to execute and deliver what you promised. And so that might be something of a Guardian tendency, so a mature Connector would actually be able to exercise their Guardian voice. So they can actually follow through with the things that they actually sold or communicated. Or that they would supplement their leadership voice with the right recruitment of Guardian voices to supplement any other weakness, per se.
Patty: 00:34:12 That’s not like Myers-Briggs because Myers-Briggs, you can change, right, throughout your life? Don’t you, like, change your letters?
Abraham: 00:34:23 So, I would say is most people do… So with any tools and assessments, there’s always a nature, nurture and choice component. When people do the Myers-Briggs, they often combine all of that and they think that’s who they are. But the reality is, if you really do it with regards to your nature, it’s very predictive, right? Everyone has a certain Myers-Briggs type, I believe, by nature, but they are very unaware sometime. That’s why they say they always change but the reality is there’s a common theme of who they are, but they filtered it because of different nurturing elements.
Patty: 00:35:01 Things are happening, yeah. It makes a lot of sense.
Mike: 00:35:04 I feel like I’m not very good at diagnosing myself with this area. So I’m curious, a leader is listening to this podcast, they hear the different voices and now they’re beginning to think about the people on their team and be able to like almost assign, oh, this person is definitely the Guardian on my team, this person definitely seems like a Nurturer.
Mike: 00:35:27 So, as you’re talking, I was thinking of my family and going, Oh, my daughter’s like this, my wife’s like this. But they might see themselves differently. Right? So I’m, kind of, curious, how do you deal with this whole voice thing when we think we’re a certain way, but if you’re looking at me, talking to me, you’d be like, “No, Mike, actually, you’re more this way.” And this is where it gets really hard, the subjective side of it, because I’m feeling a strong pull towards a certain voice, but you might see another voice in me. How do you deal with that?
Abraham: 00:36:04 Sure.
Jim: 00:36:07 So the way I would look at it is, I never try to fix or contradict people per se, unless they really want me to do so. But I think what I tend to do is, if I perceive Guardian behavior from you, Mike, I want to respond to you as if you were a Guardian because I want to meet you where you are.
Jim: 00:36:25 A lot of times under stress, we go from our natural voice to a different voice based upon what are those conditions around us, right? We actually end up in our opposite voice in extreme stress. So if you’re a ENTP, right, in extreme stress, you act like an is ISFJ. So if that’s the case, then I want to meet you as an ISFJ, calm you down so you’re not so inflamed and then respond to you again as an ENTP. And then what I’ve done is built a relationship with you. I care more about the relationship between us and your ability to perform, rather than me being right and pushing myself on to you. Right?
Jim: 00:37:08 So we talked about relational safety, right? Being able to become an influential leader, not necessarily using my authority and say, Hey, I know Myers-Briggs more than you. Mike, you’re totally wrong. You’re going to be, like, what am I going to get from you, right?
Mike: 00:37:21 Yeah.
Jim: 00:37:22 So we call that resistive leadership, where it really comes off arrogant, and you’re not going to want to work with me and even though you’re wrong, and later on, you realize it, you’re not going to even come back to me say, “Hey, Jim, you know what, you’re totally right, I’m wrong”. Right? Now, you’re like, I don’t want to work with him because he just seemed arrogant, right? He just seemed like someone that’s just a know-it-all, and he’s just somebody that if I’m really tired, he’s not going to be someone that’s going to energize me.
Jim: 00:37:44 So what we want to say is, we want to be responsive leaders. It takes humility for me to at, oh, that’s fine. But I know what the truth is going to be. And I’ll let you discover that in your time. But I need you to go through that journey so that you become more self-aware and you become a better leader because I was a better leader for you.
Jim: 00:38:01 So we saw responsive leadership. Hey, if you think you’re a Guardian or you’re exhibiting Guardian behavior, but I think he’s really a Nurturer than, hey, let’s be a Guardian. Like, I’ll take care of you. I’ll meet you where you are, and allow you to feel comfortable. And then usually, again, when the stress comes down, you go back to your natural self.
Abraham: 00:38:19 Self-awareness is a journey. And we never graduate from it, we always say. And, typically, what we find is that if you can have a process, and you have feedback loops of quantitative and qualitative assessments, and people, quickly… You may have seen yourself to, for instance, be a Connector, right? But for another person, it might be, like, hey, actually, I perceive you as this in the leadership. So it’s always good to always be a leader who wants to get feedback from people. It’s, like, Hey, this is my perception, but how have you guys experienced me, right? And as you do that, you’ll start to see a trend, you’ll start to see a pattern.
Abraham: 00:38:57 Usually, people at home, really see the real you even more so, and, so, they would often tell you the truth. And so the beauty of the five voices that is such a simple framework. It’s very intuitive that the best frameworks are simple, and that it can scale into every context so that you can actually have the right feedback. I say, Don’t adopt hundreds of different assessments. Don’t do like, I’m going to use MBTI, Enneagram, and all these colors and animals and, like, well, just pick one framework, and really start to have objectivity to the subjective experiences you have and invite others to that framework as well because then they can start to give you objective feedback in light of that similar framework.
Abraham: 00:39:37 But if it’s too complex of a framework, then it’s hard for others to play with it. So we always say hey, find whatever is simple, start to engage with it, and then, obviously, if there’s a coach or a process or visual tools that help you to kind of audit where you are and give some objective understanding to your situation, that really helps with the process.
Mike: 00:39:58 As you were chatting, I was thinking about, there’s a very famous book by Gary Chapman called the five love languages. And this is very similar learning to speak that right voice, that right language, the right person, so it’s understood. It’s funny, coming up to Valentine’s Day, and my wife always says, don’t get me flowers, don’t get me… don’t spend any money, she’s very frugal. But also, those types of things, the money, the flowers, these chocolates, that really means nothing to her.
Abraham: 00:40:28 Yeah.
Mike: 00:40:28 Like, that’s not love at all. What she wants is action, like actions speak… Service.
Abraham: 00:40:34 As a Guardian.
Mike: 00:40:35 Yeah. So my Valentine’s gift to her is I’m going to clean the house thoroughly. Yeah, like get up early, I’ll be in the bathroom scrubbing. To her, that is love.
Abraham: 00:40:47 Yeah.
Mike: 00:40:47 Like, putting in the work not just, love you sweet… Because the easiest thing to do would be, get flowers, get chocolate.
Abraham: 00:40:53 Yeah.
Mike: 00:40:53 That’s actually pretty easy for me to do. But to her, that’s, like, thanks. But she wants to see service, yeah.
Jim: 00:41:01 Let’s start with the areas that she has to interact with. So, whether it’s the bedroom first, whether it’s the garage first. Like, the time that it makes her more efficient is just, that’s love. And my wife’s a Nurturer. For her, it’s just spending time with her and cuddling. She’s just emotional safety, right?
Mike: 00:41:19 Yeah.
Jim: 00:41:20 I want to go do stuff. Let’s go to this amusement park. Let’s do this, let’s do that. And she’s just so trained, right? And so, she likes flowers every once in a while but it’s this Valentine’s Day is just going to be family time. And I have nothing planned except for one thing. And if we just do that one thing, I just have to check that off my box and be good. But it’s, just understand, how do we make it so that people want to spend time with us on Valentine’s Day, not necessarily, oh, my gosh, position of authority, Valentine’s Day, forces us to have to spend time with each other.
Patty: 00:41:53 Oh, my God.
Jim: 00:41:53 I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s a traumatic experience for other people.
Mike: 00:41:56 Right. Can you share, each of you, some examples of how these different voices, that framework has actually helped you in business?
Abraham: 00:42:09 I would say for me, in your voice, you’ll find that your two weakest voices are often missing sometimes, intentionally, in your business. So, if, let’s say, your voice your top voice order is Connector, usually, a secondary one would be Creative. Your two lower voices would be typically Nurturer and Guardian. Nurturer being more a blind spot. Well, a Nurturer Guardian system would be customer service and follow through and then SOPs in operations. And I can easily tell you right away exactly what are your pain points and what you haven’t really intentionally built up? Because what you’re really good at, it’s probably connecting away selling and branding and communicating your message and maybe creating fun, valuable celebratory type of teamwork, but when it comes to the follow-up and the execution, and the consistency in the boring, monotonous activity, in the day-to-day end, it might be really hard for you as a Connector.
Abraham: 00:43:10 And that’s actually across the board for every Connector. And so that’s really a fascinating thing, is because most people aren’t aware of that. And that because if they’re not aware of it, they’re not going to really then be intentional to building that out to make the full five voice kind of business.
Mike: 00:43:26 And that’s actually really good advice for those leaders who are doing performance reviews for their employees, knowing those voices can really help them to find those areas, Oh, yeah, they are weaker in those particular areas.
Patty: 00:43:42 Kind of, pivoting the conversation a little bit. How are you guys modeling good leadership to your kids?
Jim: 00:43:50 So, for me, and I talk about being intentional in my patterns of behavior and my actions with my family so that I can create the reality that. I want my daughter to be an influential leader as well. And I want my relationship with my wife to be something that she could see and emulate what I’m doing with her and what my wife is doing with me so that she can model that type of healthy behavior with her friends and take it everywhere, right? I want her to have her subjective experience be objectively learned through our intentionality with her.
Jim: 00:44:26 So, for my one daughter that’s turning two this Friday. A lot of it is, I just know what her tendencies are, and I’m pretty sure I know what her voice order is. But, I just also know what are the tendencies that she isn’t good at, and manage my expectations for her to do those things? And I also know what are the things that she favors from and I give that to her when the timing is right. So I don’t spoil her with doing all the things that she loves to do and just being something that she always wants to come to me for. But I also challenge her in a way so that she’s growing in the aspects that she doesn’t actually like to do.
Jim: 00:45:03 So for example, my daughter is a very spontaneous girl that has a lot of fun. She doesn’t tend to be someone that voices her opinions, so I think she might be a Nurturer. But she’s also one of those that is, kind of, happy-go-lucky. So what I need to do is, I need to lead her into a reality of success and know that she takes a lot of time to clean up. But I also know when the signs are that she’s getting tired, right?
Jim: 00:45:29 I naturally want to have more and more fun with her because that’s my tendency. But instead, I have to say, hey, sweetie, it’s time out. It’s time to clean up and I make cleaning up a game that’s relational for me. So she’s learning the cleanup skills, and then clean up in a time that she’s not too exhausted to want to clean up, and then realize that if she is too tired, that’s my fault that I didn’t set that timeframe upright for her. And then I will maybe carry her around with me and I want her to see me cleaning up. The cleaning up is not an option, right, but I will help you to make that happen together.
Jim: 00:46:03 And I’m slowly developing those skills that she doesn’t naturally want to do. So that she can be a lot more ambidextrous in her leadership. She can be a Pioneer later on because she can fight through those challenges, and she’s seen that. As well as she could be herself when she wants to be yourself and enjoy that joy to.
Abraham: 00:46:18 I think sometimes what we’re not aware of as parents is that we often try to impose in light of who we are, and think that we need to conduct ourselves and teach them that modeling but the reality is, that you might actually have a child that’s actually an opposite of who you are, right? And the reason why you have chemistry with certain children in your family is because they probably carry either, maybe, your primary secondary voice and those that actually really stress you out, might be almost opposite of who you are.
Abraham: 00:46:51 And so I think, for me, understanding this with my wife… Literally, I married my nemesis voice, Pioneer. I married a Nurturer, right? And I realized, wow, her just rested and just being herself, it actually stresses me out, and vice versa.
Jim: 00:47:07 Yeah.
Abraham: 00:47:08 It’s funny because now since I see that the uniqueness and the beauty of that voice itself, I realized she’s not trying to stress me out on purpose or trying to be malicious, she’s just being herself. It’s funny when you often fall in love with people that are things that often are very different from you but often that becomes the very thing that actually annoys you.
Abraham: 00:47:30 But, now, with this five voice framework, I see the beauty, and I start to laugh at it. I was, like, Oh my god, you’re totally being just you, where before I would have been so annoyed, right?
Patty: 00:47:38 Why are you being like this?
Abraham: 00:47:39 Yeah, and it’s life-changing for even my kids because they imagine… Some of you may have had more that militaristic, maybe Guardian, that you got to do it this way or a Pioneering type of parent who pushes their agenda and that can be very difficult for some other voices within the family that maybe are very different. And I think for us to be able to know how to nurture them or support them or challenge them no matter who they are, is very important. This is very important in the context of family, but all the skillset actually translate over into people management as well.
Mike: 00:48:14 So I have an exercise I’d like to ask you guys do. So let’s just say that… This is a practical one, like team meetings. We have meetings all the time, and it’s really important that we hear from the different people in the team, all their opinions matter. So, the exercise is, you’re leading a team meeting as a Pioneer, and you have all five voices present in that room, I was wondering if you can maybe just share how you would talk to each of them about upcoming project.
Abraham: 00:48:43 For sure. As a Pioneer, I think definitely, we always say Pioneer, shut up. You have the loudest voice so you need to listen. And I say the real motivation for you shutting your mouth, is because if you don’t get the right data, you can’t make the best decision. Because the force of the impact of your voice is so loud, you need to actually be silent and learn to not push your agenda, but actually, pull the genius of all of your people.
Abraham: 00:49:11 And because Pioneers are super loud, they often silence the rest of the room. And often, their idea usually wins. So we often say to them, be quiet, listen, hold. Starting with the Nurturer, right. Allow them to speak, don’t critique them, but really validate and create that safety for them. And then from there, we say, hey, creators, let them forecast into the future what potential pitfalls and opportunities that they can, kind of, have that spidey sense into the future. And then when you don’t understand, clarify, ask questions of them.
Abraham: 00:49:45 And then we can say hey, from there, let Guardians talk about any of their interrogating, kind of, questions that they have with regards to their gatekeeping, in regards to certain agendas of things. And we say, if you invite them to those critiquing questions or specific detailed questions, they will actually feel honored and respected, and they will think of all the monster list of things that you need to do to really execute on the idea.
Abraham: 00:50:12 We say to the Connectors, hey, if you’re passionate about something go sell it for all it’s worth and be passionate, right? Because you’re going to, naturally, be able to bring the energy to the group. But also, you’re going to, naturally, bring in all of the ideas of how to message it, how to connect all the people and resources and recruit them for this specific agenda. Then when you actually have all that idea from all the four voices, then you have everything that you need to then collect that as a Pioneer, get all the different alignment of people and resources, and all the data to actually make them the best solution to win as a team. So, I think that would probably be the most ideal situation as a Pioneer.
Patty: 00:51:00 As a Pioneer, it must be hard for you to be able to tell yourself, be quiet. Right? That’s like what you said, right. How do you achieve that kind of self-awareness? And how do you practice that continually so that you don’t fall back into your typical Pioneer traits or your typical Creative or typical Nurture traits.
Abraham: 00:51:17 I think it all goes into knowing yourself to lead yourself and if you start to realize a certain reality, and a certain fruit of, kind of, how things go in regards to the team communication, then you have to really say, Wow, there’s not much communication of flowing back and forth and exchange of it. There must be something with regards to my own leadership, I maybe may have not created a safe place. I’ve not pulled enough from them or maybe stated a common ground where people feel like they can bring in the contribution. And so I think that’s where you, kind of, have to, come to the reality and start to adjust differently.
Mike: 00:51:56 I have a last question. I think this discussion has been really helpful. And I love just, kind of, the theme around self-awareness. And I was wondering if you guys can talk about what you do to constantly keep yourselves self-aware?
Jim: 00:52:13 This is a hard one. And I think this is the blind spot everybody has. Abraham and like to say that the blind spot that we constantly have, which you can see in your fourth voice, it really is the inability to realize what other people hear you saying, and what you think you’re saying, right? And it’s, literally, being vulnerable, to allow other people to speak in your life and the people that you really trust, for them to talk to you openly and honestly and allow that safety for you to realize that I don’t know everything, and I don’t feel everything, and I need you to provide that time to me.
Jim: 00:52:52 So there’s a tool that we teach, it’s called the developing others tool, and it’s how do you develop other people? And in that, there’s three components that we say is important, you need to have consistent formal time, but also need to create access for informal time. There needs to be, also, short-term vision and long-term vision, what does this relationship look like now and what do you want from this relationship long-term? And then as well as let me know, through encouragement… We’d like to say leaders call each other up, not call each other out. And I want you to call me up to what you think and what I’m trying to be, not just always provide critique and call me out to what I want to be.
Jim: 00:53:30 But if you have… For me, it’s, like, I have five people in my life that I call my personal board of directors.
Mike: 00:53:33 I like that.
Jim: 00:53:33 They don’t know that they’re on my board of directors, but I have consistent conversations with them. I tell them what I need to hear, I tell them my situation, I ask them to give me feedback of what they think, knowing me, what probably really happened, right? And I asked them, hey, do you mind if we can have this conversations again, or can I text you or can I check in with you on some other things that happens. And just have that open line of communication. And then have that short-term expectation, long-term expectation of what we want from this relationship. And as well as what are the things that you think I could do better, and how can you call me up so that I can become more self-aware and somebody that people want to follow versus just being somebody that people have to follow. And then I’m not providing that responsiveness to them. That’s been really helpful to me, just to have that five board of director’s.
Mike: 00:54:32 I love that. That is so beautiful. I just want to end the conversation on a fun note. But I really love talking about this with you guys. So I’d love for you guys to take turns applying the voice to a popular character in pop culture right now or like even history or wherever. Starting maybe with Nurturer and then Creative and then, yeah.
Abraham: 00:54:56 Jim’s really good at this.
Patty: 00:54:58 I know.
Abraham: 00:55:00 Movies and, kind of, breaks it down. What’s a popular movie or show that I think people can all resonate, and, kind of, attribute a stereotypical voice to them?
Jim: 00:55:14 We talked about This Is Us. I don’t know if that’s something that’s ubiquitous.
Patty: 00:55:19 We talked about This Is Us, Marvel… What else did we talk about? I think those are the two big things we talked about?
Jim: 00:55:27 So, Avengers might be one. That’s pretty ubiquitous. Going for the Nurturer in the Avengers, you might not see this but Captain America, I think is a Nurturer Guardian, kind of a character. Almost similar to Superman, right? Like, Clark Kent. Clark Kent would be a more of a Nurturer. He just cares for people. Puts himself in harm’s way. He’s not trying to fix things, but he’s fighting for justice so that people have safety where they are. And I think that’s something that I saw with Captain America, right. He is that patriotic American? Nobody hates him. You can’t hate him. He’s so nice. But he’s never trying to change other people. He’s just defending people.
Patty: 00:56:09 That’s actually the perfect example of the Winter Soldier and you were saying, if someone doesn’t change, Nurturers stick them, like, no matter what. Yeah.
Abraham: 00:56:17 There you go.
Jim: 00:56:20 That’s awesome. Creative, who would you say? Bruce Banner, Hulk?
Abraham: 00:56:26 Yeah, Bruce Banner, Hulk, or even Batman. It would be a creative figure.
Jim: 00:56:31 They’re idealistic of how things ought to be. They’re always trying to make the world a better place. And, so, maybe Bruce Banners, just experimentation, all his science that he was, and then with Batman, right, just really calm, really nice guy, kind of a goofy, fun-loving person, that playboy image is not really as much of the Creative voice but it is, like, he has that secret identity of Batman where he has all these tools, like technology, they’re very… Creatives are early adopters of technology and try to do things differently, so. But then you cross them, like the [inaudible 00:57:11], so we say Creatives tend to Hulk out as one of their weapons.
Jim: 00:57:14 And then even for Batman you could see when he’s really upset and he’s really defending for that justice, and what Gotham City is supposed to be for his hometown and that vengeance for his parents and he’s trying to right that wrong. I think that’s it. Spider man, I think, is also-
Abraham: 00:57:29 Bent for justice, yeah.
Jim: 00:57:30 I think Spiderman can be, also, a Creative voice in that way too. Who do we have next?
Abraham: 00:57:37 Ironman, I think maybe he’d be a Pioneer.
Jim: 00:57:39 Yeah, Pioneer.
Abraham: 00:57:40 He’s always thinking about scaling. You see [crosstalk 00:57:42] scaling his business and all entrepeneuring new things, and pushing the agenda. Yeah.
Jim: 00:57:50 That’s good. Who’s a Guardian?
Abraham: 00:57:54 Guardian, consistency. Let’s see.
Jim: 00:58:01 Guardians don’t tend to come out a lot in [inaudible 00:58:04]. I think they’re the opposite of Connectors. So Connectors are going to be the life of the party, right?
Patty: 00:58:10 Right.
Jim: 00:58:10 Connectors tend to be the person in the background that makes sure that everything is done and it’s done consistently well.
Mike: 00:58:18 Oh, it’s going to be the butler.
Jim: 00:58:20 I was going to say, Alfred, maybe, right, in a way maybe, or just someone who comes out very serving but he’s like, no, he’s telling Bruce Wayne what to do, what’s wrong, how he needs to do something differently is one way to look at it. So it’s having that posture of what are the systems he ought to do to minimize the risk of him coming back to the mansion and killing himself, right?
Patty: 00:58:47 Yeah.
Jim: 00:58:47 He’s constantly worried about that type of a risk of death that we have.
Jim: 00:58:51 And then Connector.
Mike: 00:58:56 This is really good.
Patty: 00:58:57 I know.
Jim: 00:59:00 Marvel universe or DC Universe, try to pitch something or always do something. I think from Guardians of the Galaxy, Star-Lord.
Abraham: 00:59:14 Star-Lord.
Jim: 00:59:15 Total Connector, right? He brings all these people around him to help him out. But he’s he’s totally music, like the life of the party, always cracks jokes a little bit, right? I think Star-Lord-
Patty: 00:59:27 Doesn’t take feedback very well.
Abraham: 00:59:28 Takes it personally.
Patty: 00:59:32 Okay, well, that’s it. You don’t have any more questions, right?
Mike: 00:59:36 That’s really good.
Patty: 00:59:36 Okay. Thank you guys, for giving us your time even though you’ve been talking all day.
Mike: 00:59:41 Oh, actually, let’s record. I just want to get one more thing in. For those that want to learn more about your work, can you share?
Jim: 00:59:49 Yeah, yeah.
Abraham: 00:59:54 Who would we actually direct that to?
Jim: 00:59:55 So, we are independent consultants for GiANT Worldwide so we’re not really employees. The way the model works is GiANT Worldwide is the organization and they have… We’ve gone through months of training, and then from that, we have the license and the ability to provide the structure and the material and train upon that.
Jim: 01:00:15 So currently, Abraham and I are working on creating a brand because what we’ve tried to do is take what we do and then put this into a diversity, equity and inclusion model, and that’s what we did here at Experian is, dow do we create this engagement or leadership most companies do, but provide it in a way where the power to the people, so to speak. How do we get the non-executive levels to feel that they’re empowered to be able to move up? So, I think the best way, for now, would just be, like-
Abraham: 01:00:44 LinkedIn would be a great way. LinkedIn is a good way. Yeah. So Abraham Gin. You can look me up, type up GiANT, you should probably find us there. And I think you can look up Jim Lee as well. Yeah, should be able to find-
Patty: 01:01:00 We’ll definitely link you guys too. So for our listeners, they can go ahead and look in the description and contact you guys.
Jim: 01:01:08 We definitely want to encourage you… Mike, you were, kind of, hinting at this as well as for you, Patty, we can’t stress the importance of self-awareness because the less self-aware you are, and as much as you can hear where you’re probably not, and there are definitely casualties of bodies of people that are being undermined as well as yourself, just around you. And imagine the opportunity loss that you have to be able to support more people to be able to move your goals even further forward, that there’s less wasted time, less bumps and bruises that the people around you have to feel and then you don’t have to undermine your influence, but, in fact, be able to leverage your gifts and see things in a more clear way that brings other people aboard and empower others as well.
Jim: 01:02:00 So please, empower yourself. And we’re more than happy to answer your questions. So look us up on LinkedIn and more than happy to respond. Thank you.
Patty: 01:02:09 Perfect, thank you.
Mike: 01:02:11 Excellent.